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Why does God allow children to die?
Topic Started: Jul 5 2018, 08:35 PM (1,362 Views)
Topographic Oceans
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PF18
Jul 7 2018, 05:09 AM
Topographic Oceans
Jul 7 2018, 03:57 AM
I'm no theologist or philosophy expert (neither is anyone in this thread--none of us here are even vaguely qualified to be discussing this subject, but I'll take a shot anyway) but I don't think people should imagine "God" as if he was Goku or Superman.

Thinking of God as just another organism amongst many, an organism which just so happens to have magical super-powers but is otherwise not unlike other lifeforms (and is treated as a physical being with very human-like modes of behavior instead of something metaphysical) strikes me as antithetical to the very concept of God.
Nobody is thinking of them as something like "Goku or Superman."

God created us all right? God allowed for all life to thrive and is the reason that light exists and what not? God has a level of control over humans and that is what I mean when I say "all-powerful" Whether he be a physical entity or an entity that is among us and doesn't encompass a physical body at all, that is what I mean. If he isn't "all-powerful" and influence the lives of humans on a huge scale, then he isn't truly a god to me
I'm afraid you missed the point entirely. I wasn't so much replying to your post as I was commenting on how this subject is discussed here.

Thinking of God as just another being amongst many is incongruent with the idea of something that's "absolute". If God's a being which can be easily understood and analysed through human lenses, then he's hardly God at all. People here discuss the concept on very simplistic terms, as if the only thing that distinguished God from the rest of us was his status as "all-powerful" and "the creator". Hence the "Goku and Superman" comparison. As I said in my first post, people talk about God as if he was just a guy with super-powers.
Edited by Topographic Oceans, Jul 7 2018, 04:13 PM.
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Tinny
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Oceans, I would actually like to mention depending on the branch of Christianity, God isn't absolute or all powerful, in one fairly obscure branch he and Satan even had a war to a draw and instead make peace seeing that they need the other. Granted popular Christianity prefers him as an absolute figure, but I personally feel if we just go by the popular thing, we'll almost always find self contradictory ideas coexisting without anyone addressing them, and instead we should get ultra specific with the religion in question. Though admittedly that would make this thread a lot easier to answer lol
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So many arguments and I fail to see anything more than 'I want to believe it so it must be also true'. It's funny how every religious person has their own version of what justification might be behind the concept of a god, yet no one is backing up their opinions with solid proof. 'Whatever good, bad, justified or unjustified acts the god of my religion does, it must not be put under the question mark, because that's the mindset of the social, regional and religious fragment I grew up in'.
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Tinny
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Jul 7 2018, 04:20 PM
So many arguments and I fail to see anything more than 'I want to believe it so it must be also true'. It's funny how every religious person has their own version of what justification might be behind the concept of a god, yet no one is backing up their opinions with solid proof. 'Whatever good, bad, justified or unjustified acts the god of my religion does, it must not be put under the question mark, because that's the mindset of the social, regional and religious fragment I grew up in'.
All positions on God are backed up primarily by faith, without any proof to it. You either have faith that he doesn't exist, or faith that he does, with nothing in the way of evidence to make it. While Religion is more popular for this, it is possible in some communities to get that but with atheism. And hell I'd be lying if I said that was limited to religion, it's with everything, and I experience this on a daily basis. Attitudes towards gender, law, race, sexual orientation, good manners, everything is often never questioned because it's the mindset of the XYZ fragment you grew up in, and often this can happen multiple times as people succumb to group thing and forget to question their own ideas. It's a problem that plagues humanity, not just religion and to single it out I think is a bit silly, especially when there are far more dangerous attitudes that are fueled by this (and if you think say, homophobia is brought in by religion, boy do I need to introduce you to Communists and the New Atheists).
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Tinny
Jul 7 2018, 04:23 PM
1. All positions on God are backed up primarily by faith, without any proof to it. You either have faith that he doesn't exist, or faith that he does, with nothing in the way of evidence to make it.

2.It's a problem that plagues humanity, not just religion and to single it out I think is a bit silly, especially when there are far more dangerous attitudes that are fueled by this (and if you think say, homophobia is brought in by religion, boy do I need to introduce you to Communists and the New Atheists).
1. But when do people trace the line between faith and fact? Humanity evolved because dubito ergo cogito.

2. Wait, wait, wait. When did we get from the main topic to social trends that fueled homophobia? And I do not need to be introduced to anything, I wasn't born yesterday nor am I a stranger to any of these, I come from a country which just spent half a century under Communism. Anyways...

Nobody was singling out religion about anything. I was just inviting people to bring arguments.

And if we really have to go so far... Just because there were/are also other political, social etc. ideologies out there that harm specific masses, doesn't make religion any purer. We could start another topic discussing how religion was a weapon meant to control the lower classes, how its representatives were involved in acts of corruption, violence, wars and s*** like that throughout the history. So we wouldn't be off-topic here.
Edited by Bad User, Jul 7 2018, 05:34 PM.
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Topographic Oceans
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Tinny
Jul 7 2018, 04:18 PM
Oceans, I would actually like to mention depending on the branch of Christianity, God isn't absolute or all powerful, in one fairly obscure branch he and Satan even had a war to a draw and instead make peace seeing that they need the other. Granted popular Christianity prefers him as an absolute figure, but I personally feel if we just go by the popular thing, we'll almost always find self contradictory ideas coexisting without anyone addressing them, and instead we should get ultra specific with the religion in question. Though admittedly that would make this thread a lot easier to answer lol
I was typing a really long response about what I personally feel is a proper way of conceptualizing God (if that can even be done), but I realized I was starting to delve too deep into a subject I'm in no way equipped to discuss. I'll stick to talking about Vegeta vs John Cena or wathever next time.

I'll just say that some of the stuff I read on religious discussions here feel like something straight out of a video by the Amazing Atheist.
Edited by Topographic Oceans, Jul 7 2018, 04:44 PM.
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I was find it ironic how when people decide to pretend God is real they just point their fingers at him and claim he's turned his back on the rest of the world, when their backs are completely turned to God. Can you be more hypocritical?


How is that hypocritical?
When is the last time a miracle happened? When is the last time God addressed more than one person(of questionable sanity)?
The Bible is filled to the brim of events where God interacted with mere mortal man and made no attempt to hide itself.
Fast forward thousands of years later and the most exciting religious event we get is when Jesus appears on a piece of toast.

Unless we consider every time someone claims "God spoke to them" to be true does it not seem like God has just abandoned us if we're to take The Bible as true history? Where is God exactly?

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we do know that God doesn't cause it.

But he's literally God? The concept of disease can only exist because of him, for he created all.
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He is not a God of sickness and evil

No, he is the God of everything and if we're to believe he's all knowing then before he even attempted to create Satan he'd know exactly what would come of that.

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I think one day we'll understand.
You can say that's just an excuse, but really it's a fact.


How is that a fact when it's something you only believe? You are filling in a gap and assuming there's an answer coming later.


I don't think you really have to be a theologian to take a hard look at things on a purely logical level, so much of this stuff contradicts itself or requires and extreme amount of bending just to fit the view of "God never did anything wrong" that or any gaps are filled with "We just don't understand that yet"
All of these beliefs can't be true at the same time, it's as simple as that really.

To this end I maintain that organized religion is pointless because your beliefs are personal.
Many people say "I believe this" and their religion entirely disagrees with them, so what is the truth? There can be only one line of truth if there is only one God.

So as far as I'm concerned the possibilities are, there's no God at all.
There is a God but we have absolutely no business even attempting to understand what it wants or even if it wants anything at all, to the point where we really shouldn't waste our lives wondering.
Or that there's many many Gods and the reason everything is so messed up in the world is because they don't have almighty influence over everything, bad crap happens because some Gods want that, etc etc
Kinda like the book American Gods except they probably don't walk the mortal realm. Though Patrick Stewart is questionably dashing and young looking for his age...
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Steve
Jul 6 2018, 07:44 AM
Pointer
Jul 6 2018, 07:08 AM
It is not like he lets it happen. He just doesnt intervene which isnt the same
It is when you're supposedly all powerful.

And it certainly doesn't make you good to watch innocents dying, have the power to stop it and just not bother.


So...why worship that? What exactly does this God do for people? The whole idea isn't very inspiring.
He gave us free will

Basically it is the same if you have an ant farm. Do you regularly intervene if a certain and is dying or something. No since it is the part of the circle of life you dont. You dont wanna reveal yourself directly since it would make every "faith" obsolete

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Tinny
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Jul 7 2018, 04:41 PM
Tinny
Jul 7 2018, 04:23 PM
1. All positions on God are backed up primarily by faith, without any proof to it. You either have faith that he doesn't exist, or faith that he does, with nothing in the way of evidence to make it.

2.It's a problem that plagues humanity, not just religion and to single it out I think is a bit silly, especially when there are far more dangerous attitudes that are fueled by this (and if you think say, homophobia is brought in by religion, boy do I need to introduce you to Communists and the New Atheists).
1. But when do people trace the line between faith and fact? Humanity evolved because dubito ergo cogito.

2. Wait, wait, wait. When did we get from the main topic to social trends that fueled homophobia? And I do not need to be introduced to anything, I wasn't born yesterday nor am I a stranger to any of these, I come from a country which just spent half a century under Communism. Anyways...

Nobody was singling out religion about anything. I was just inviting people to bring arguments.

And if we really have to go so far... Just because there were/are also other political, social etc. ideologies out there that harm specific masses, doesn't make religion any purer. We could start another topic discussing how religion was a weapon meant to control the lower classes, how its representatives were involved in acts of corruption, violence, wars and s*** like that throughout the history. So we wouldn't be off-topic here.
Fair enough, I've just seen a lot of situations where people just mindlessly bash religion without really considering how it enters into the greater shape, texture, and landscape of society, nor while considering the other factors that in turn shape religion. It tends to be as Oceans described it... Something that could come out of the Amazing Athiest's mouth. So I wanted to add a bit of a counterpoint to it. As for the latter, it was admittedly a broader point I was making about how much in our own lives in general are generally determined by that whole "Whatever my tribe/people/fandom/political allies/religion/etc. does, it must not be put under the question mark, because that's the mindset of the social, regional and religious fragment I grew up in'." Again, mostly in response to what I perceived as mindlessly anti-religious sentiment that doesn't actually bring into account greater society, not only in how it shapes it (both good and bad, which I imagine I don't need to go into for what effect it has on people's lives) but in how it is in turn shaped (both good and bad, for example a religion changing it's view on homosexuality or race). Admittedly in this case I might be mostly responding to Steve here :lol: who totally does get into that at points.
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

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He gave us free will


Free will doesn't mean kids should be subjected to horrendous diseases and such from birth.
You can blame all that on Satan but if Satan has the power to affect our world, unless he is actually more powerful than God then God should be able to fix that with a snap of his fingers. If he has fingers.


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Basically it is the same if you have an ant farm. Do you regularly intervene if a certain and is dying or something. No since it is the part of the circle of life you dont. You dont wanna reveal yourself directly since it would make every "faith" obsolete


I have actually owned ant farms :p
You can just leave them to it, sometimes you get sealed ones that basically only have openings for food and water. (Or not at all if you get those gel ones but they're not healthy)
But to best care for your ants you need to maintain their formicarium.
Ants are stupid at times and can make bad decisions, sometimes they'll drag food back to their home but if said food is damp that can lead to mould which could end up killing the whole colony so either you let them die or you intervene and salvage the situation.
Depends on the ant too some species manage just fine on their own and just eat seeds and other materials that don't really rot and cause issues.

I feel like that definitely is an apt comparison.



(Ant farming is a really cool hobby btw they're so fascinating to watch, they even make their own little graveyard/trash bin for any ants that die. They just pick them up and drop them off in the chosen area consistently. s***'s cool. Can be kinda expensive and is quite difficult though, or at least I thought so think I was too impatient)
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Pointer
Jul 8 2018, 12:23 AM
Steve
Jul 6 2018, 07:44 AM
Pointer
Jul 6 2018, 07:08 AM
It is not like he lets it happen. He just doesnt intervene which isnt the same
It is when you're supposedly all powerful.

And it certainly doesn't make you good to watch innocents dying, have the power to stop it and just not bother.


So...why worship that? What exactly does this God do for people? The whole idea isn't very inspiring.
He gave us free will

Basically it is the same if you have an ant farm. Do you regularly intervene if a certain and is dying or something. No since it is the part of the circle of life you dont. You dont wanna reveal yourself directly since it would make every "faith" obsolete
You don't create the entire ant farm though. If you did somehow create life from scratch you would not create awful diseases. Why would you? What sort of lesson would that teach and why would such a lesson even be necessary without death?
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@Tinny, let's avoid long quotes, shall we?

I do bash religion, only not entirely mindlessly. I like showing up with proofs, like excerpts from the Bible / The Old Testament, studies from the history of law involving religious institutions, criminalistic history, history in general and anything that was demonstrated in one way or another and helps me prove religion is generally hypocritical and harmful, if not at times downright evil.

But I did not come across any counterarguments with the tiniest bit of evidence behind. 'God is <something> we cannot understand, but he certainly exists. God wants X, he does Y, he has a plan called Z, his motives are ABC'. But does anyone have any more evidence other than their mere opinion of what might be out there? Or that god is really an entity proved to exist, and not just a comfort for people to feel hopeful, protected, special..? Oh, and the fables that a group of people with power in their hands invented thousands of years ago, do not count.

And yes, religion does have its merits for trying to 'domesticate' people into not killing, stealing etc. with the certainty that they will pay for eternity for it. It's an artificial set of values, if you ask me, but it's better than nothing. I could guarantee that some people with no religion, like me for example, know not to intentionally harm other beings simply out of empathy and education, but not everyone is like that. Still, we cannot turn our sight from the terrible things that religion does and the double standards it promotes. You invoked Communism, here's an example from my people - it threw people in jail or killed them if they voiced opinions against the regime; it controlled massmedia immensely in order to propagate their own doctrine. It incriminated abortion, leading to women suffering from complications either from a 'homemade' abortion or a truly dangerous pregnancy; it forbade divorces, leading to abusive families and so on, so forth and what-have-you; BUT it provided people with an apartment and a workplace. Does it clean away all the crimes and the brutal violations of the human rights? Scarcely.

You quoted me at some point. The idea is that when someone grows up with people around them telling them that there is a big beardy guy up in the sky and if they don't believe in him they'll go into a hot pot of sinners, it's hard to grow out of it. It becomes so engraved in their subconscious that their minds will refuse to let it go and try to fill in the 'logic' gaps with all sorts of explanations. How many religious people, if given the chance to start their lives fresh and with no one persuading them, would choose the exact same beliefs as they have now? Impossible to answer.

It all boils down to this simple scenario: there is no logical/scientifical proof that god exists. Hence Goku does not believe that a god exists. But Vegeta does, against the lack of proof. Is it in Goku's mission to convince Vegeta of the lack of proof, or is it is in Vegeta's to provide proof in order to debunk the common sense?
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highwaysaiyan
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Jul 7 2018, 02:48 PM
I was find it ironic how when people decide to pretend God is real they just point their fingers at him and claim he's turned his back on the rest of the world, when their backs are completely turned to God. Can you be more hypocritical?

I'm no theologian, as Topographic said, none of us are. But while we may not understand why some children die or have diseases, we do know that God doesn't cause it. He is not a God of sickness and evil, none of that is from him. Everything negative is caused by mankind and Satan. It may not make sense why some prayers are answered and a miracle is performed, while others aren't. I think one day we'll understand. You can say that's just an excuse, but really it's a fact. Another thing, yes there is so much pain and suffering in this world. Why doesn't God just take us away from here? Why doesn't he stop those from doing evil? Well, those evil people he died for just like everyone else. They have free will like everyone else and they have chances in life to not go down that road. And God will take us from here someday.

Anyways, I wasn't going to post in this thread. But it's hard not to when I see negative things being said about my Father. Which genuinely hurts.
arent we supposed to be religion neutral in this thread ? im jewish, we dont believe in satan or good/evil(kinda). we believe in cause and effect. you sin- you suffer, you live according to god's will- you are rewarded.


but one thing is that same in all monotheistic religions. even though god can do ANYTHING, he doesnt interfere in human affairs as much as people want him to. he wants humans to work to fix their lives. he might help here and there, but will never do the job for his creations.
if humans cut off the forests, humanity will live with it. if humans take out all of the fish in the seas, humanity will have to live with it. if humans pollute the air, humanity will have to live with it.
the key is in the people's hands, always has been and always will be. if we use it wisely, thats for us to decide.
Edited by highwaysaiyan, Jul 8 2018, 04:28 PM.
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

Ginyu
Jul 8 2018, 10:28 AM
You don't create the entire ant farm though. If you did somehow create life from scratch you would not create awful diseases. Why would you? What sort of lesson would that teach and why would such a lesson even be necessary without death?
Yeah I'd find that quite petty and pointless suffering.

I look after and maintain my loyal subjects so that they don't destroy themselves. Though ants can be wiser than humans there. Ants are metal as f***.

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but one thing is that same in all monotheistic religions. even though god can do ANYTHING, he doesnt interfere in human affairs as much as people want him to. he wants humans to work to fix their lives. he might help here and there, but will never do the job for his creations.


That still doesn't explain any of the needless horrors in this world, we do plenty to destroy ourselves already and if Satan created all that which is entirely debatable the point still stands that God just lets it happen. Likely God cares far more about Satan than us if so.

The only way to stretch that to make it fit the general view of God is that he gave us the tools, the means to perform scientific endeavours, in order to cure all diseases and whatnot over time.
But no lesson is being learned with that, we don't thank God for the achievements of scientists.
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Steve
Jul 8 2018, 09:14 AM
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He gave us free will


Free will doesn't mean kids should be subjected to horrendous diseases and such from birth.
You can blame all that on Satan but if Satan has the power to affect our world, unless he is actually more powerful than God then God should be able to fix that with a snap of his fingers. If he has fingers.


Quote:
 
Basically it is the same if you have an ant farm. Do you regularly intervene if a certain and is dying or something. No since it is the part of the circle of life you dont. You dont wanna reveal yourself directly since it would make every "faith" obsolete


I have actually owned ant farms :p
You can just leave them to it, sometimes you get sealed ones that basically only have openings for food and water. (Or not at all if you get those gel ones but they're not healthy)
But to best care for your ants you need to maintain their formicarium.
Ants are stupid at times and can make bad decisions, sometimes they'll drag food back to their home but if said food is damp that can lead to mould which could end up killing the whole colony so either you let them die or you intervene and salvage the situation.
Depends on the ant too some species manage just fine on their own and just eat seeds and other materials that don't really rot and cause issues.

I feel like that definitely is an apt comparison.



(Ant farming is a really cool hobby btw they're so fascinating to watch, they even make their own little graveyard/trash bin for any ants that die. They just pick them up and drop them off in the chosen area consistently. s***'s cool. Can be kinda expensive and is quite difficult though, or at least I thought so think I was too impatient)
In that case how do you know he doesnt intervene ?

I mean maybe he does it if the whole population is in danger.
or maybe " stone me " but we can also consider the fact that " maybe " allowing certain individuals to die is a part of a lesser evil.
Edited by Pointer, Jul 10 2018, 07:18 AM.

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